Outsourcing and India -- Civilized Debate vs. Name Calling and Racism
Even though I've always hesitated to use the delete button because I'm such a strong believer in free speech, I found a few of the newer comments completely over the top and decided to take action. I did, however, leave many more because I think it's important for people to see the level of hatred that exists. As repugnant and stupid as these degenerated comments are, they are also an important, yet unfortunate, barometer of public sentiment that cannot be ignored. With free speech comes the responsibility for us all to retaliate, inform and attempt to educate those who espouse such nonsense -- no matter how difficult and futile it sometimes seems, it's not okay to keep quiet.
The outsourcing and H1B Visa question is one that is at the center of a big debate and controversy. Personally, even though I'm strongly in favor of more open immigration policies and labor specialization (on-shore or off), I can appreciate some of the arguments of those who have been impacted as their jobs have migrated to low-cost countries, including India. But I would so much rather see some of the hatred espoused in this discussion channeled into positive criticism and constructive debate versus fire-breathing rhetoric and racism.
Why not focus on the big picture rather than pushing back on those taking jobs and personalizing the anger? For example, I believe that we should encourage the US government to grant tax breaks to businesses to hire next year on-shore (both immigrants and non-immigrants -- let the best candidate win) vs. spending on this silly stimulus -- and deficit spending for health care and other areas -- which is going to end up leading businesses like mine to push off new hires because of rising taxes. Want to drive employment? Incentivize hiring vs. penalizing it.
Seriously, in the current spending and forthcoming tax environment, businesses will turn more to outsourcing to simply maintain the same after-tax profit that we enjoy today. This is not a partisan observation -- it's simple cause and effect. If you want to keep jobs onshore and encourage full-time employment vs. contract work, encourage our government to create jobs versus taking them away. And to those who disagree with this perspective, please chime in. But stop the fire breathing racism and rhetoric. Why would any employer in his or her right mind entertain hiring anyone with so much pent-up misdirected anger? If you have something constructive to say on the subject and you think my perspective is wrong, by all means, take out your virtual pen and join the conversation. But don't tell me -- or anyone else -- I'm unethical because of my ethnic or racial background.
- Jason Busch
More than 1-in-5 H-1b applications are fraudulent.
We got several U.S. Federal investigations and trials underway involving (basically organized crime and money laundering) lawyers, outsourcing companies did things like bring an H-1b worker and:
- Bench them, pay them nothing, tell them to go out and find a job.
- Have the H-1b worker pay up front ~20 thousand dollars.
- Fail to pay H-1b workers.
- Pay them mid-west wages, while working a west-coast job
- Have supposedly high-skilled workers take jobs in Flower Shops, Gasoline station attendant (the H-1b is destroying jobs at all levels).
People who condone this, or want weaker immigration, are putting up a big smoke screen to hide the aweful truth, because human trafficking and slavery is what the H-1b visa is all about.
Every country has an immigration policy, Indian officials were complaining recently that too many Chinese workers (that must be a racist-xenophobic stance) were in India on Chinese contract.
If you watch the episode of 30-days, there is a point where an Indian engineer says that the reason why Indian engineers are taking the jobs of U.S. engineers is because Indian engineers are "Better" that U.S. engineers. This too is a racist comment.
I think you guys are shameless. Why not compete in level playing field. This H1B and other restrictions are biggest fraud on mankind by white killers of natives.
If you own the good of what was left from your forefathers, you own the bad, the liability. And do not worry for a moment. H1B is still not finished for this year. And yeah...Those countries China/ Russia/ Middle East / India...yeah those slaves who used to work for free for you and on whose labour the whites have ruled and have built the mansions have decided to dump the dollar.
This is the last of decades ok take this to 2020 max...and you would know what it is like living in EQUAL world.
Yeah wait a minute....you guys are finished. Or wake up and smell the coffee...the empire is no more.
Sorry for being racist, but that was the only way to reply to you and shake you up. The world has changed mate.
If you like to have some civilized debate (and hopefully some real action too) about some issue that's of real importance, go learn what's being done to this country and the world by the Bilderberg group, Rockerfellers, Morgans, Rothschilds...etc...
Stop wasting your time and look at the real problem
You will not prevail in your fight unless your eyes can see who the real enemy is
Just like the precepts of the religious and political powers of the centuries preceding the age of enlightenment, this point of view is archaic, juvenile and wrong. Wisdom and logic should be fueling the flame of this debate, not ethnocentricity and inflammatory rhetoric.
Along those lines, individuals on the other side of the aisle that have lost jobs due to the economic downturn or being replaced by less educated foreign based labor, too have a responsibility to squelch the bigoted rhetoric and stop pointing the finger at those NIV workers who are less experienced when it comes to the social and economic politics they wish to engage or think they can participate in. This is the very type of commentary referred to by politicians and corporate fascists that seek to bury the working class of this country under ever increasing taxation and political oppression.
The truth in this matter is that the capitalist hierarchy and economic royalists are not content with making a comfortable living and insuring equality and tranquility in the workplace, they are more concerned with earning more money than they or five generations of their progeny could ever use. They enjoy watching the masses squirm with fear over the possibility of economic devastation and they get a kick out of watching their competitors fall defenseless and impoverished on the economic battlefield.
The focus of the anger of the working class of the world should not be on each other but on the ruling class that seeks to enslave us even more than they had in the past. Just as Mahatma Gandhi was able to incite the British textile workers to side with the Indian people on the right to produce clothing locally, we need to incite the new Indian working class into joining our cause to increase the availability of fair economic opportunity in India and all other burgeoning economic nations. There is no reason that I should suffer or starve so that others may grow rich, unless of course that is my wish to do so.
The people of United States should not have to give up a comfortable life just so a corporate executive can buy a bigger house, boat or car. Nor should we have to give up anything so that the people of India can avoid correcting their own countries failing economic and political policies.
"Sorry for being racist...".
I work with your immoral, unethical, and shameless lot everyday.
It's nice to finally understand your true intent.
Don't lose hope about this great nation. As an Indian non-immigrant, I have only been treated fairly here. Yes, it's a very sad state of affairs that 10% of the country is unemployed (not counting the self-employed), and outsourcing is a huge siphon of jobs.
But, America is not some fad of a nation that emerged 10 years ago. It's 233 years old, and has championed human rights through countless wars and emancipation in the true spirit of democracy. Not all is rosy, since not enough people go to college here, healthcare is expensive, and people spend more than they make. But these are molehills compared to the mountains Americans have surmounted.
This too shall pass.
God bless America and my homeland, India.
Importing labor is not really going to increase jobs here, or innovation. Its intended purpose is to drive down the wages of the highly skilled workers already here. You don't have to dig too deep to realize that America has the talent it already needs for high-tech (unemployment of over 8%), and doesn't need the over 65,000 (I probably have this number way too low) that are here on H1Bs/L1s etc. The unemployment in high-tech is at highs never before seen here.
Since xenophobia keeps being bantered about here, let's look at its definition and see if it really fits the situation: an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange. Is it truly unreasonable to want your government to stop importing people to take the jobs of your fellow citizens? Look at the immigration labor laws around the world and you will see that this is actually common. The Indian government has just recently been enacting immigration laws to protect the jobs of her indigenous population. I wouldn't exactly call that xenophobia.
Our greatest strength as a Nation was to allow for those who were politically oppressed to immigrate to this Country. Some of those happened to be highly innovative or talented folks, such as Einstien etc. They weren't the grunt in the trenches technical folks that are now being imported in such great numbers, during a time of high-unemployment for those already here.
I grew up in Los Angeles so I recognize the value of diversity, but this really isn't about diversity. Once again, it's about Corporate Greed, ie. the gross profits of the Executive Management. We need to stand up to it and say NO MORE! Let's take care of each other, let's employ our brothers and sisters as a first priority, nothing less should be done. Then if there is truly a shortage (there isn't right now, nor has there ever been in high-tech), let's consider inviting those qualified individuals from around the world that want to live here because of our political system and its economic freedoms.
That sounds like cross-border body shopping with transfer of knowledge outside of the USA and attendant facilitation of off-shoring. It smells like body shopping.
"Civilized debate" requires honesty. Try it for a change.
To quote Priya - "white killers of natives. ". Ironic because I am Native American. I am quite thankful the peace tribes have as piers to this great nation.
Americans do not owe anyone, anything. We fought off colonialism and we are not an imperialist power.
The kind of bigotry and racism you display is despicable, and the fact you are sorry means you know what I am saying is true.
I work with your immoral, unethical, and shameless lot everyday.
..."your" off-course as in plural and you (singular) call me racist :)
I know you did not get it first time around. Shock yourself before it is too late. Empire is Gone!
Forget Indians. Think of day when you would have to pay $300 for a pair of shoes, because in few years time nobody in the world will buy your dollars and you longer will have slaves work for free in your own countries. Do not get it? Oh why I do not blame you. God forgive those because they do not understand what is coming their way....
That aside, the posters are correct -- the H-1B has been among the easiest ways for an employer to cut labor costs. And we, the customers of said businesses, are the recipients of exactly what the company is paying for.
Take Time Warner Cable, for instance.
My Time Warner cable kept dropping the sound every 30 seconds or so, as I tried to watch a football game on a Sunday evening. Tech support chat went like this (I had the audacity to go "off script")
Me: I don't have a cable box -- I'm watching HDTV on QAM channel 5-1 --
Me: I have the cable directly connected into my TV -- it's a digital TV
Me: Since it's just this one channel (KXAS HD, 363, 5-1 QAM)...
Me: I thought that the issue might be with the feed to TW from NBC
Steve: Okay.
Me: If I had a cable box it would be channel 363 that has the problem
Steve: Can you please reset the power cord?
Me: The power cord to what?
Me: To my TV?
Steve: Yes, which comes from the wall socket.
Me: You want me to unplug my TV?
Steve: Yes, please and check if the works.
Me: You're pulling my leg, right? Steve indeed...
Or, take the washing machine that my folks bought when we moved into a new house in 1978. It must have cost almost $300 back then. Which is worth around $950 in 2007 dollars.
Which is also about what I paid for a washing machine in 2007, that had about the same features, wasn't anything fancy, and was made by a U.S. based company that has outsourced their manufacturing out of the country. It was even called "heavy-duty" and "commercial capacity."
Guess how long that sucker worked? If you guessed nine months, then you guessed right. Sure I got a warranty replacement, but the replacement washer is now leaking in the same way the first one did, and oops, the 2 year warranty is now expired (company only honors the warranty from the original purchase date, not from when they give you a replacement.)
Back to the $300 dollar model from 1978 -- it handled a family with six kids for the next 28 years. Folks sold it for $50 when they retired and moved to a new state. Oh, the discharge hose once worked its way out of the drain and flooded the floor, but that probably cost about $100 to fix back in 1993.
The guy that ran the company that fixed it hired workers with long hair tied in pony tails hidden under Marlboro baseball hats. They were unerringly white or black, many had crooked teeth, and almost all of them smoked cigarettes and happily drove their 1979 Dodge Ram Vans to your house for a trip charge of $30. You know, good ole American red-necks.
The same kind that built houses, worked at gas stations and automotive machine shops, worked at the electric and phone companies, welded the iron for our streets and bridges, and were a fixture of the American workforce.
What ever happened to the durability of American made goods?! And even more, what happened to the American redneck?
When was the last time you saw a white guy mowing a lawn? Swinging a hammer at a new home site? Installing cable? Rolling a service call to fix your washer?
Hah! They didn't understand you, did they? Well, how's your Spanish? That $110 trip charge was hardly worth it, was it?
Same thing is happening in the computer industry, but the difference is it's entirely legal. Other than that, there's very little difference.
Just like the illegals, H-1B visa holders live seven or eight to a rented three bedroom home. Just like the illegals, there are communication issues that derail good customer service from the get-go. Just like illegals, they work for a whole lot less money, and have no recourse with their employer if their employer jacks with their pay or hours.
We're not racist, just observant. And trying to save the American work ethic in the process.
The important thing is not what we think of H1B. The important thing is that the world has changed and H1B is just one of the arbitrary barriers that have protected some people more than others. In an equal world there is no such place as of H1B, atleast not in US, ANZ and Canada which have no histories to protect. I can understand if it was in Europe.
Having said that, I think more importantly trade barriers and H1B is just one variant of this, never works. So lot of people, particularly in west are sleep-walking into disaster. I live in Europe and I am as scared as any other westerner; unfortunately I have to bear the pressure to survive both the threat from cheap third world labour and the inherent racism of being blamed for being cheap labour myself; which I am not. Fortunately all my life I have been fighting such threat and therefore I am in a way better placed to fend off these challenges. I do not think banning immigration is a solution and we are definitely focussing our energies on wrong things.
The question I ask myself is "Do I deserve to be paid more than others" and "what can I do to get paid more than others"...the answers are not simple. Consider the fact that being based out from India / China/ Brazil is actually advantageous in long term; but not easy for somebody completely settled in Europe to again relocate back.
The O-1 visa (for Aliens of Extraordinary Ability) is for those who can demonstrate sustained acclaim or recognition for achievements in science, education, business, etc.
It requires PROOF of the individual's extraordinary ability, but it only has to be 3 or more of the following:
o Evidence of high salary in relation to others in the field
o Authorship of scholarly books or articles
o Being cited in professional publications
o Participation on a panel or individually, as the judge of the work of others
o Membership in academic associations which require outstanding achievements
o Original scientific or scholarly research contributions
o Receipt of major prizes or awards
o Evidence of previous employment in an essential capacity for organizations having a distinguished reputation
Read about it:
http://www.oiss.yale.edu/visa/o1.htm
So, what's the problem with squashing the H-1B?!
PS: As for China eating India's lunch (all plurals, correct me I am wrong). I can only laugh. You have not seem parts of India which has already started lunch of some Chinese. Cuts both ways...ALL SINGULAR, if you understand what it means.
I am knowing intimately a professor at a local university, have an honor code that is are impeccable.
Today morning, I googled key phrases from of the papers submitted as original works by Indian students. Five of the six are being fraudulent and copies of the work of others from the internet.
The other one when I pointed out that the font changed and parts of the paper were being blue while other parts black ink, was enough without googling, but I did it anyway. Also a copy of someone else's work with her name on it. Not Priya, but close enough for a king cobra Meena.
Club them together and today four students immediately withdraw instead of being put up to academic suspension, two are taking chances with the Provost.
Penalty for academic suspension is expulsion, hah hah. I know where two other students are to be going. Desis! Hah hah.
Five minutes work exposes them every paper, usually six or eight papers the semester, four to eight dumb south indians each time who are thinking they are better than the Chinese students while Jin and Sun are eating their lunches in school, too! ALL ASIANS, IF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
Just doing my part sweetie.
P.S. Only firing for cause in my department at big company this year was Prashanti shared her work with three others, they said "it's my work". But my company was tracking them already and knew the truth. Boink! Boink! Boink! Boink!
Is the air a little too rare for you to compete?
What you say may have been true 5-10 years back ....but no longer, atleast not in those numbers you cite. I can tell you that.
On the other hand, I know here in projects that I work. There is 1 in 8 chance that a good work in Projects is being done by Western Europeans.
Air may be rare but I am not complaining. You are. Against employers as if employers are fools to employ H1B including IBM which is the most profitable company in the world.
I am not suggesting that any of you are cleaners or such but sometime back I read in one of the forums about a lament. The lament is "Most Cleaners/ Clerks/ low grade staff" always think that their managers and the management is fool and know nothing about works.
Get it. No?
As to the rest which are on the line, I think it's important for everyone to see how racially motivated people can be. I'm personally dead set against any form of affirmative action, mind you, but I'm shocked at the level of hate here. Maybe I should rethink my policy stance. Oh, I forgot. In Chicago, Asians (including Indians) are held to a standard that exceeds that of whites (and far exceeds that of blacks and Hispanics) for competitive public high school admission. Shouldn't Indians -- and Indian Americans -- be afforded the same opportunity for their kids to go to the best schools as others? Ooops ... I forgot, they're not a protected minority, they're just a minority.
See the difference? Until we tackle this issue from a color and geographically blind perspective, there's no point in having it (and don't tell me for a minute our society singles out Indians for special hiring and admissions treatment like blacks and Hispanics -- we don't and in fact we often discriminate against them on the academic front). The short of my argument here is that those on the anti H1B side will continue to damage their arguments (not that I agree with them, but I do believe in constructive debate, and I hope they can get there) by making this such a hate filled discussion. Drop the racial overtones and show me from a new jobs perspective, from a lost jobs perspective, from a tax base perspective, etc. what your logic is.
Personally, I think we can thank much of the economic success stories in CA and the rest of the country in the past 20 years from Indians who decided to set up shop here. I wonder how many jobs they've created ... but of course, that's just my perspective.
That's it from me on this thread (and everyone else because I've closed out the comments on this post). If anyone from the anti H1B perspective wants to make a non-emotional business case for their argument and it's logical and well-reasoned I'm open to printing it.